tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post7753463466096691593..comments2024-02-28T23:27:13.346-08:00Comments on BAD RAP Blog: when "good guys" fight their dogsTimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17654993049959218916noreply@blogger.comBlogger110125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-75198827850374516302011-12-19T20:46:24.896-08:002011-12-19T20:46:24.896-08:00OMG OMG what kind of a world do I live in? How can...OMG OMG what kind of a world do I live in? How can this be allowed? How does law enforcement justify this?Is this not equal to infiltrating a gang and killing someone as an initiation to bust the rest of the gang? What kind of a world do we live in? OMG<br />(MrsMoos btw)Mrs.Mooshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13973024137226068931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-80711063863513926302011-01-25T21:36:38.227-08:002011-01-25T21:36:38.227-08:00I just want to point out that the investigators di...I just want to point out that the investigators did not upload that video. <br /><br />John Bacon was one of the dog fighters. The video was evidence used against him in court. As a result, he was entitled to a copy. Bacon then gave the copy to the reporter who broke this story. The reporter then uploaded it.<br /><br />Whatever else the investigators did, they didn't upload that video.Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-21458731311191008442010-10-30T10:23:49.429-07:002010-10-30T10:23:49.429-07:00I would agree with all you guys. Dog fighting is w...I would agree with all you guys. Dog fighting is wrong. <br />I am 12 and a victem of a dog attack but know that it wasnt the dogs fault but the person who kept hitting the dog making it mad and them attaking me. So to all you stupid people out there who think that dogs are ust animals think again because by making these acts you are proving that you are no better than what you think of these poor animals are society values no more that toys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-5250506045425382612010-10-02T18:34:56.008-07:002010-10-02T18:34:56.008-07:00No, it's not ok, under any ethical framework t...No, it's not ok, under any ethical framework that believes dogs are individuals with intrinsic value. In any ethical system, one individual can only be sacrificed to save others if that individual chooses to sacrifice him or herself. You can't kill 20 children to save 100 children. You can't turn 20 children into slaves to save 100 children from slavery. Utilitarian tradeoffs are not ethically viable for individuals with intrinsic value--unless those individuals make that choice for themselves.<br /><br />If you believe dogs are mere objects, then sure, it's fine to destroy some to save many. But if we believed that, then why would anyone object to fighting dogs?Nancy Langstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11970067690038342512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-81529888117410135432010-09-28T13:34:40.942-07:002010-09-28T13:34:40.942-07:00If you must do this, and I must say i'm torn a...If you must do this, and I must say i'm torn about it... but if you MUST do this... then why not use the dogs already in the shelter that are considered unadoptable that already have the aggression issues instead of training new puppies that could otherwise live out normal happy lives. It does not make sense to condem more of these animals then what is necessary. There are hundreds of investigational dogs confenscated from fighting rings that are put down because they are unfit to be rehabilitated, why not let a veteran dogs have the chance to make a change for their own breed by paying it forward?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-67576519948691935322010-09-28T13:29:58.998-07:002010-09-28T13:29:58.998-07:00Very disturbring and as much as I hate dogfighters...Very disturbring and as much as I hate dogfighters, I don't think it is right to use dogs to infiltrate the rings. There's gotta be a better way. I do think there needs to be tougher penalties for dogfighting and better rewards for those who might be inclined to tip off the police. I'm upset with Missouri Humane as I donated to them when they were taking in the dogs from a fighting bust but no more after learning about this. There has to be another way to get the dogfighters than to participate in this horrible activity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-59550792903567232112010-09-28T08:58:42.536-07:002010-09-28T08:58:42.536-07:00First we need to make sure that dogfighting is see...First we need to make sure that dogfighting is seen as a real crime, for which people should do real time. I completely agree with the commenters who say that no dog should be tortured to give someone a slap on the wrist. A huge amount of progress has been made on this in the last few years, but more is necessary.<br /><br />This easy part of the question aside, it still seems to me that you don’t need to use dogs to infiltrate dogfighting. Given the links between dogfighting and the drug trade, and the incredible resources and judicial might behind enforcing drug laws, a lot of progress can be made by using drug informants to also inform on dogfighting. There may be a cultural reluctance in law enforcement to spend bargaining chips with informants on “just dogs,” but dogfighting, like the drug trade, has its own penumbra of associated criminal behavior and its own constituency (us) for stopping it. And what if the authorities let it be known that they have a keen interest in identifying fight pits? At the very least, the owners of such property could be subjected to some pretty tough questioning, and a thorough examination of the adequacy of their tax filings. RICO is also our friend here.<br /><br />As Millie commented, “law enforcement” officers who are fighting dogs are taking the easy way out. Good, old-fashioned police work, backed up by the courts and the public, can get us a long way.goingnowhereslowlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16584530189468604100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-60868432415154434782010-09-27T20:53:07.049-07:002010-09-27T20:53:07.049-07:00There's no excuse for ever using your own belo...There's no excuse for ever using your own beloved dog to further a cause. It makes me sick...the ultimate betrayal.Pamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17083051182765917771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-48383192859601469102010-09-27T19:07:44.531-07:002010-09-27T19:07:44.531-07:00That's the one, J.M.
It's great that CODI...That's the one, J.M.<br /><br />It's great that CODIS is opposed to BSL and trying to make this an "all breed" data base, but the fact is, the only breed that's being studied for links to known fighting dogs is the same breed that's under siege all over this country. <br />More will be coming out on this (concerns over mis-use of blood samples, that is), so keep watching - and thank you for watching btw!Donnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05881171300084907158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-46995561581285874212010-09-27T18:35:53.595-07:002010-09-27T18:35:53.595-07:00@Donna
Speaking of DNA are you referring to the CO...@Donna<br />Speaking of DNA are you referring to the CODIS Database?<br />If so have you seen this statement by VGL?<br /><br />http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/forensics/CANINECODIS.php<br /><br />"VGL does not support breed-specific legislation. This database contains no breed-specific information and cannot be used for that purpose. It is established solely for prosecuting criminal dog fighting cases, and only law enforcement professionals engaged in investigating dog fighting casework can contribute samples."J.M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-15961594663215175802010-09-27T17:52:31.240-07:002010-09-27T17:52:31.240-07:00@ Connie. We aren't feeling the DNA love. We&#...@ Connie. We aren't feeling the DNA love. We've been in discussion with the aspca and others and trying to learn the ins and outs, and will comment once we feel we have something of value to add. Right now? ... Skepticism and concern.Donnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05881171300084907158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-74833920428143437962010-09-27T16:10:07.565-07:002010-09-27T16:10:07.565-07:00This is SO WRONG!!
Are they going to say it's...This is SO WRONG!!<br /><br />Are they going to say it's ok to murder someone to catch a killer?<br /><br />Now I want to save the pitties from the bad guys AND the good guys!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-10379385253593275602010-09-27T15:01:26.961-07:002010-09-27T15:01:26.961-07:00Donna, Tim & others: did you hear the story o...Donna, Tim & others: did you hear the story on NPR today about DNA database for pit bulls? They interviewed someone from ASPCA & Best Friends: 2 different points of view on the topic. They referenced the Missouri bust. Just wondering where you stood on this issue.Connie, Orlandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03352603326494248659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-53825354735287604112010-09-27T08:40:20.029-07:002010-09-27T08:40:20.029-07:00Thank you for commenting Millie. We really do need...Thank you for commenting Millie. We really do need the perspective of law enforcement on this topic to help sort out the thinking.Donnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05881171300084907158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-24916733824960110432010-09-27T07:18:50.074-07:002010-09-27T07:18:50.074-07:00NO.NO.NO...as a retired federal investigator, I ca...NO.NO.NO...as a retired federal investigator, I can tell you the invesigators who do this heinous act are taking the "easy" route. Stiffer penalties for the crime, bigger rewards for information = more people willing to snitch once caught themselves,or to turn in their associates who may be fighting. Better undercover, and detective work can accomplish the same result. This is simply inexcusable and must be STOPPED. Since when did joining the criminal element and participating in a crime become a way of catching criminals and would this be accepted in other criminal activity..NO!!!Millie - Ft Myers, Flnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-22119600480493886772010-09-26T18:05:55.896-07:002010-09-26T18:05:55.896-07:00The ends never justify the means - especially when...The ends never justify the means - especially when the ones who have to suffer through the means don't have the ability to consent or not. The fact of the matter is, you never know what the ends will be. Will they find enough evidence? Will the case be thrown out in court? Will there be a plea agreement? Will all the dogs be put down? There is no way to answer those questions in advance. Therefore, sacrificing innocent dogs in the name of an unknowable (and, in my opinion, in the name of any) cause, is horribly inhumane. I think it's even worse, actually, because they know what they are doing is immoral and inhumane. I don't really know how they sleep at night.Annie's Momnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-63484281253538448432010-09-26T17:08:48.800-07:002010-09-26T17:08:48.800-07:00anon 4:34,
If I understand you correctly, you are...anon 4:34,<br /><br />If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that investigators hand select dogs that more likely to cause great harm to the other dogs during fights?<br /><br />Would it bother you that this would cause even more injury to the other dogs - doubling the amount of suffering that would come out of the fights?Donnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05881171300084907158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-45597071060091125032010-09-26T16:34:23.834-07:002010-09-26T16:34:23.834-07:00It's a horrible means to the end, yes. But it...It's a horrible means to the end, yes. But it has to be done. It's not just about saving 500 dogs, it's about saving many thousands of dogs, and preventing this underground culture from continuing, preventing kids from joining because they think it's cool. To help save a breed from bans, and other breeds from the same fate if bans continue. <br /><br />But how about changing how they do it? There's many high animal aggression APBTs, who are just about out of the range of many people's ability to handle, and would otherwise be put down, remember, this is a breed that was bred to think scuffling was fun, like many terriers do, just because many today want no part and are ruined by it, doesn't mean there aren't some who would be the type who do want to go show the other dog who's boss. Pull from those, search them out, pick ones that don't have any distinctive markings. And when they've done their job, give them a life of peace. <br /><br />Maybe then we can end this.<br /><br />Although, I'm half tempted to say a harder to work idea would be to infiltrate and turn dog fighting into weight pulling competitions....if they bet on those, would we care so long as the dogs are taken care of? They can still have their stupid status, and for it to be effective, they'd have to take care of their dogs. x.xAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-56378617351245966772010-09-26T10:21:48.429-07:002010-09-26T10:21:48.429-07:00No re justifying torture of forty. Yes, there is ...No re justifying torture of forty. Yes, there is and must be another way. Just as there was and is another way to test harmful chemicals on laboratory animals. Does anyone have the stories on these forty dogs? If so where are those stories? Damn sure were they able to speak -- were someone like Jim Gorant to give them voice -- the answer would be loud and powerful. No.One voice countshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05144471319229260793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-47797900947653802232010-09-25T10:19:02.617-07:002010-09-25T10:19:02.617-07:00@ Elizabeth- Re: dog fights/spectators:
It depend...@ Elizabeth- Re: dog fights/spectators:<br /><br />It depends. If it's a pro ring, with major money involved, then no, casual spectators are NOT welcome. You only get knowledge and entree if you have a dog you're fighting. <br /><br />If it's 'streetfighting', then entry is much looser. These are 'pick-up' fights, often arranged on the spur of the moment, and conducted in an open lot or someone's backyard. The fights rarely take place in the same place twice, and by the time AC or police hear about them, they're over and everybody is gone. <br /><br />Streetfights are different from the pros. Pros spend months conditioning the dogs and will travel across states to big fights. They may only fight their top dogs a few times a year, but the money is big. The pro fight rings are highly secretive and difficult to break in to. <br /><br />And, because of the money involved, you're dealing with some pretty ruthless people. There are no 'spectators' at pro fights. Guns, drugs, enforcers, and big money. But no 'spectators'. You're either active in the ring, or you're not present. <br /><br />Streetfights, on the other hand are usually 'house' dogs owned by drug dealers, gang members, two-bit thugs, and habitual petty criminals. Winnings are much smaller - usually a few hundred bucks. It's much easier to be a spectator, even if you don't own a dog. However, busting a streetfight doesn't give much bang for the buck. Cops will bag a dozen gangbangers, AC will confiscate a dozen dogs, the spectators will get a slap on the wrist for being there, and the gangbangers will get a fine, three months and probation, if that. <br /><br />The ultimate answer to streetfighting is education, at the public (legislative) and private (citizen) levels. <br /><br />The ultimate answer to pro fighting is to throw the fu*#ers behind bars for a very, very long time.Collettenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-30758845001368407242010-09-25T10:01:24.932-07:002010-09-25T10:01:24.932-07:00It's so hard to believe, with all the tools an...It's so hard to believe, with all the tools and technology available to law enforcement officials, that an approach so brutal and barbaric is condoned under the erroneous reasoning that "the ends justify the means." The punishment does not fit the crime, which makes these dogs' suffering and involuntary sacrifice that much worse. Surely there has to be another way to get these busts.Aimee Chagnonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-66839512677155281932010-09-25T09:56:45.696-07:002010-09-25T09:56:45.696-07:00Hi Donna, Re: "...that shock lead to the push...Hi Donna, Re: "...that shock lead to the push for landmark changes in agency policy,..."<br /><br />That's exactly my point, too. Let's take this energy and use it to create the same kinds of lasting changes.<br /><br />Because pit bulls, as we all know, were once routinely villified by the media and the general public. Back then, most people weren't even interested in the facts about pitties. Since the very, very public outrage following Vick, there have been obvious and lasting changes at the public and private level. <br /><br />To me, events like this (revealing that the officers engaged in fights, or when the appalling details about Vick were made public) are a painful blessing. <br /><br />On the one hand, the knowledge is deeply disturbing and deeply painful. On the other hand, the same knowledge opens dialogue and creates opportunities to present positive information and create lasting change.<br /><br />For example, before Vick, many potential dog adopters wouldn't even have considered a pit bull or even a pit mix. Today, that's changed. And I know - from talking to some of those owners - that the catalyst for their change of heart was the Vick case and its aftermath. Their eyes AND their hearts were opened. <br /><br />I didn't watch the video. I won't ever watch that video. I don't need to. But I know this...<br /><br />Every dog that has suffered and died at the hands of a dogfighter is a warrior and a hero. Because of their sacrifice, thousands can be saved.Collettenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-61288014498814724002010-09-25T08:44:55.075-07:002010-09-25T08:44:55.075-07:00Well put Elizabeth!Well put Elizabeth!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-49443845853285210632010-09-25T08:35:49.577-07:002010-09-25T08:35:49.577-07:00What's being discussed in many of these posts ...What's being discussed in many of these posts is what's "OK for a police officer" to do, as against what's legal. We have morals and we have policy.<br />Police action, though influenced by public morality, is pretty clear-cut: uphold the law and protect the law-abiding citizenry. Committing the crime to bust the crime is counterintuitive, no matter how passionately one argues the case. I talked with an 11-year-old about this recently and he also suggested what makes this all the more clear is that the pit bulls in these instances have not willingly committed to this cause. The parallel between exploiting children to bust child pornography rings is likely refuted with, "Well they're just dogs." And that's exactly the problem with this misguided approach. Dogs can't be fought as throwaways to end dog fighting.<br />Likewise, if a narcotics officer ingests cocaine on a bust to bring the case in, she's compromising herself. It's her choice to step outside the law in the interest of what she feels is a greater good. She'll have to answer to her captain should her methods be called into question. She'll have to deal with the consequences of her illegal, immoral participation in the criminal activity. The dogs sign no such moral contract.<br />I'd be interested to learn just how much access to fight rings has changed since Vick. It is still a spectator sport, is it not? I'd imagine people are still welcomed as bystanders.Elizabeth Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07029090893951541694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35009181.post-37949639028658225042010-09-25T07:56:46.812-07:002010-09-25T07:56:46.812-07:00Collette, if you dig back a bit on our blog to pos...Collette, if you dig back a bit on our blog to posts in the summer of 2007, you'll see the same kind outrage, just directed at a different travesty.<br /><br />Readers were rightfully shocked when they learned that pit bull victims of cruelty were being systematically destroyed post-seizure by "the good guys," and that shock lead to the push for landmark changes in agency policy, as you know. Before the outrage, investigators adamantly defended the practice of destroying confiscated dogs, but they've since changed their perspective and are some of our strongest allies in saving the dogs now. <br /><br />I'm confident that the same outrage we're seeing here is the start of similar discussions and changes in how dogs are used by investigators.Donnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05881171300084907158noreply@blogger.com